A grooming shop owned by Mary Schroeder where Debby Rothman was employed, a poodle name Andiallen's Fleetfire, a year of employment with Max Kerfoot and a Lhasa named Snuffy were the key factors in the founding of Fleetfire Lhasa Apsos. Mary had shown Great Danes and was starting a Poodle breeding program. Debby had grown up showing Poodles, Viszlas, Collies, Shetland Sheepdogs, Smooth Fox Terriers and Cairn Terriers. She suggested Mary use Fleetfire, after her first poodle, for a kennel name.
Max Kerfoot was specialing BIS Ch. Nyima's Once A Nites Enuff the year Debby worked for him. Mary and Debby fell in love with Snuffy. His daughter, now Ch. Aurora's Kim=Tu Dynasty, was offered to them and the offer was accepted. Her first show was October of 1979. Shortly after that, now Ch. Nyima's A Little Nachas and now Ch. Almont's JB of Nyima ROM** were offered. One dog lead to another!
The following years saw Mary's breeding intents and Debby's "show dog only" attitude merge to form the working partnership of Fleetfire Lhasa Apsos. Fleetfire has bred and/or owned 19 champion Lhasa Apsos with two more major pointed and six more pointed. Their dogs are all owner-handled and the bred-by exhibitor class is often used. Three Fleetfire Lhasas have finished entirely from bred-by with three more pointed from that class. Although several Lhasas have been specialed by Fleetfire, it is the class competition that Mary and Debby enjoy most. They have three dogs that have won groups and five that have placed in groups Ch. San Jo Fleetfire was the Grand Futurity winner at the 1984 National Specialty.
A very rewarding and most memorable show took place in October of 1983. Alie, now Ch. Fleetfire Hot Tam Alie, had eight points as a puppy, but needed a good deal of work to be shown as an adult. His coat was at the adolescent stage and he didn't do a thing to enhance himself in the ring. He was, and is, a beautiful dog and needed to be seen as such and as the unimpressive Lhasa that he could make himself look. Debby worked with Alie for over a year before bringing him out again. The weekend he was brought back out to compete had a four-point major entry. Alie won the breed both days and went on to win the group! It was such a wonderful reward for lots of hard work.
Fleetfire's greatest source of pride is their foundation bitch, Jelly Bean. Ch. Almont's JB of Nyima ROM** (Ch. Nyima Knick's DeBusschere* x Almont's Dew Drop) is the dam of seven champions with one more major pointed. Another son, yet to be shown, is the best Lhasa Mary and Debby have bred. All of the Lhasa Apsos they have bred trace back to Jelly or Jelly's half-brother, Ch. Nyima's A Little Nachas (Ch. Nyima Knick's Debusschere* x Ch. Shana of Halmar*). Nicki is the sire of three champions, although his major role in the breeding program is being fulfilled now. Granddaughter and grandnieces are being bred back to him to set the type for Fleetfire.
People tend to think Mary and Debby are breeding for red Lhasas because many of their Lhasas are red or red gold, and because of the kennel name. Color is irrelevant to Mary or Debby. It was happenstance that the dogs used to produce Fleetfire Lhasas carried the red and re gold color genes.
The first Lhasa litter was whelped in October of 1980. Jelly Bean was bred to Nicki. Ch. Fleetfire Hot Tam Alie and his sister, Ch. Fleetfire Zshoi Zhel, were in that litter. The breeding was repeated later and Ch. Fleetfire Replay and Fleetfire Red Cliff were whelped in February 1985.
Alie bred back to his daughter, Fleetfire Par T Tyme, produced a beautiful mahogany red sable male named Fleetfire Hot Tymes Is Here. Timmy is just one year old and will be a real flyer upon maturity. Alie was also bred to his half-sister, Ch. Aurora's Kim-Tu Dynasty (Ch. Nyima's Once A Nites Enuff x Ch. Almont's JB of Nyima ROM**). Kimmy produced only one puppy, known as Annie Lhasa, Fleetfire Won An On Lee. Annie Lhasa was bred to her cousin Stuffy, Ch. Nyima's Hot Stuff ToNite (Ch. Nyima's Mucho Macho x Autumn Lee Beat) to create Ch. Fleetfire Leidi Lei Dawna and the pointed Fleetfire Red Rox.
Stuffy was also bred to Fleetfire No Zhel Lee (Ch. Nyima's A Little Nachas x Patsy's Mytsee Gitsu) resulting in Ch. Fleetfire Red Rover Red Rover. Rover has been bred back to her grandfather, Nicki, and the promising puppies are Fleetfire Decadence and Fleetfire Rudely Decadent.
All of the above breedings have been line-breedings or in-breedings. Jelly Bean and Nicki, the foundation stock, were sired by the same dog, Ch. Nyima Knick's DeBusschere*, who was an outcross. Their dams are unrelated. In order to intensify the gene pool and help establish the Fleetfire line, Mary and Debby felt the above breedings were necessary. The resulting animals have an elegant, up on leg profile and move like the wind. The heads have the expression Fleetfire is breeding for, although the structure of the head has not been uniform. Coat texture has been inconsistent.
To introduce the genes necessary to produce uniform heads and coat quality, Jelly Bean was bred to Ch. Rimar's Rumpelstiltskin. One bitch lived and her name is Bell, Ch. Fleetfire Zhel Lee Bhel Lee. Fleetfire acquired a Rumpelstiltskin grandson, Ch. Niall's Fleetfire O' Blu Patine, from Niall and Sondra Rogers. Blu (Ch. Anbara's Ruffian x Niall's Hsin Dih Bear ROM) was bred to both Jelly Bean and Bell. Blu and Jelly produced Ch. Fleetfire Red Zinger, Ch. Fleetfire Par Ting Shot and major pointed Fleetfire Par Ting Glance. Blu and Bell produced Ch. Fleetfire Fash On Red and major pointed Fleetfire Put On Your Red Shus.
The above combinations did produce nice coat quality and pretty heads with sweet expressions. Mary and Debby are now tying in the dogs coming down from Rumpelstiltskin with the dogs coming down from their foundation Lhasas. Bell was bred to her half-brother, Ch. Fleetfire Par Ting Shot, to produce two bitches - Fleetfire Red Fern and Fleetfire Tia Taschi-Anna. Fern and Tasha are both pointed from the bred-by class and will be shown to championship soon. Another breeding that combined both lines were Fashon Red bred to her greatuncle, Nicki. The promising all champiion litter consists of Fleetfire A Fash On Classic, Fleetfire The Latest Fash On, Fleetfire She Was Hot, and Fleetfire Coppelia.
Mary and Debby are very excited with the results of their latest two litters. The puppies represent four generations of breeding and a promising future for Fleetfire. Several people have been most influential to Fleetfire Lhasas. One has been Jerri Schwartz of Nyima Lhasas from whom Fleetfire acquired their excellent foundation stock. Another, Sondra Rogers, has played many roles - from mentor to sounding board to a friend in the true sense of the word. Thank you.
LU We all have certain features in the Lhasa Apso we prefer, and it is these features that make your dogs different from someone elses. What are the features of the Lhasa Apso that you feel are most important? Describe in words your interpretation of these features.
FL We agree on the features we prefer in a Lhasa Apso or our partnership in the breeding program wouldn't work. Movement and soundness are at the top of the priority list. We both started with shorthaired working and/or sporting dogs. Structure and movement knowledge is a must if you intend to converse with fellow exhibitors! The type of movement we feel is correct is free flowing, ground covering and effortless. The topline is level and motionless while moving. When viewing movement coming and going, the legs should start to converge to a single track. To achieve that effortless movement the Lhasa must be correctly constructed. Books and books have been written on the subject, but briefly, we feel a good sound rear with a moderately angulated pelvis, moderately angulated stifles, balanced with laid back shoulders and humerous bones that curve gently around a moderate spring of rib to elbows properly set under the ribs and straight font legs are the framework for a Lhasa. This animal, by virtue of its being up on leg and of medium build, is very elegant in profile, possessing a long arched neck with fluid transition into the shoulders and topline and a head and a tail carried aristocratically. We feel the skull should be narrow with flat planes on the backskull and a muzzle that in one-third the total length of the head with a reverse scissors bite. The expression is of most importance to us. Mary was trying to describe the expression and was having a difficult time finding the right words. Later that day Stuffy was out in a run and Mary spoke to him. Stuffy turned around and haughtily glanced at her with drop-dead look. "There, that's what I like - an alert, arrogant, defiant expression," Mary said. Temperament wise, we enjoy happy, willing to please Lhasas that will, on occasion, show a stubborn streak. We don't accept nastiness, just defiance. Put a nice harsh coat with an adequate amount of undercoat on the above described dog and what a beautiful creature to behold!!
LU How do you fell the breed has progressed and/or regressed in the last 15 years? (In regards to movement, toplines, fronts, hindquarters, heads, etc.)
FL This question, along with some others, is difficult to answer because of the short time we've been involved in the breed and our location. Our first Lhasa was exhibited in October of 1979 and the following October our first Fleetfire litter was whelped. The number of Lhasas we see is limited although we do attend the National Specialty and/or make trips out of our area yearly. Judging from photographs, which can be deceiving, it generally appears that there is more leg under the animals. The improved grooming techniques, along with cobbier bodies, make for a more elegant looking Lhasa.
LU What do you feel is the ideal size for a dog and the ideal size for a bitch? Which would you penalize more severely - too small or too large?
FL In our opinion 11" is the ideal size for a dog of medium substance and 10 1/2" for a bitch of medium substance. Neither one of us would fault a Lhasa on size alone as long as it is apparent the dog is an Lhasa. We penalize substance more than height. An elegant 11 1/2" male Lhasa is more attractive than a coarse 10 1/2" dog, although some people would consider the 10 1/2" male more correct.
LU In what tow or three areas do you feel people are lacking in the knowledge of the Lhasa Apso? In other words, in what areas is education most needed in regards to the breeding, raising and exhibiting of Lhasa Apsos?
FL Education is needed concerning structure and movement, A difficult thing for people to understand and see is structure. Add the hair and it is more difficult. A study of shorthaired large breeds to grasp the concepts involved in structure is recommended. Our retired Lhasas are kept clipped short and they are an excellent learning tool. It is easy to bury your head in the sand when involved in coated breeds because the hair can cover up so much to the unschooled eye. Once the eye is trained to proper movement it is not hard to see the dogs that are built correctly.
LU How do you feel about the quality of Lhasas in different parts of the country and abroad?
FL We hope it is education people are lacking when dogs with unsound stifles are bred. It is tragic to think breeders are aware of soundness problems and still breed those animals. Lhasa Apsos, whether show or pet, must be able to live a comfortable life freed from surgery and pain. So many resources are available to breeders in these modern times that is is bewildering that breeders don't take advantage of the excellent seminars, tapes and books. We all need to READ and LISTEN.
We are amazed much too often by methods of training. There are times we feel people involved in dog shows don't really understand dogs. Puppies should be allowed to be puppies and taking a young puppy to training class weekly and working the puppy for an hour is pure stupidity. Taking a puppy everywhere in the age of many strains of enteritis is flirting with disaster. Insisting that a four month old puppy must walk on the leash when it doesn't want to encourages a "robot" performer at a later age. When one of our puppies hits that stage, the puppy must take one step and then lead training stops for up to two months. Granted, we are the masters of our dogs, but we are asking that dog to go in the ring and strut around like the best dog ever created and a submissive dog can not do that. We are known for showy dogs and while some of it is genetic, it is also the result of correct training and upbringing. There are such fine lines between developing a submissive animal, a delightful animal to show and live with, or an animal that dominates its master. Be careful!
There is a wide variety in the style of Lhasa Apsos throughout the country and this must be influenced greatly by what is available in each region. Within each style there are quality animals. No matter where we've shown, a few dogs stand out in the competition. Being able to see the assets of any Lhasa, even if it is not the style of Lhasa that we are breeding is conducent to keeping an open mind.
LU What, in your opinion, is considered to be "true breed type"?
FL The answer to question no. 2 applies here also.
LU What are your opinions on breeder-judges and all-rounders? The quality of judging on the whole? What are suggestions on improving the quality of judging on the breed level?
FL The quality of judging, on the whole, is decent. A feasible suggestion on improving the judging procedure is for the judge to verbalize why the class was placed so as the ribbons are handed out. It would be an invaluable teaching tool for exhibitors, both old and new. We try to keep an objective, open mind and to aid that will mentally place a class in which our dog is competing. To form an opinion on the capabilities of a particular judge, it helps to watch that judge do several other breeds to see if he or she sees dogs the same way as we see dogs. It is easier to judge the whole picture if you're not involved in the breed. The verbalization would help us to understand how the judge saw the dogs on those days we didn't agree with the placements. We generally prefer all-rounders over breeder-judges because most all-rounders place the emphasis on movement, structure and the total picture while some breeder-judges dwell intensely on one thing.
LU Do you feel politics are involved on the breed level? In dog shows in general?
FL Politics is defined as "sagacious in planning". Sagacious is defined as clear-sighted, intelligent, discerning, sensible and wise. Definitely "politics" are involved in dog shows but the above description is the "politics" we feel are involved and not the "politics" screamed by a disgruntled exhibitor. Some people never understand the concept of why dogs win. Many factors, beside the quality of the animal, are involved in successfully competing at dog shows. The condition the dog is in, the showmanship of the dog and what else is being exhibited at the time are other factors to be considered. The sagacious planning in campaigning a dog on the Group and Best In Show level include building a reputation and advertising. Time and energy is better spent on conditioning and training exhibits than crying "politics".
LU What qualities of the Lhasa Apso do you feel you have improved upon in your breeding program? What areas do you feel you have not made the progress you desired?
FL Fleetfire started with fine quality Lhasa Apsos and we've been able to continue that heritage while blending our foundation stock. The focus right now is on consistently producing good coats and our head type on our style of Lhasa, using the breed standard as a blueprint. When that goal has been reached we will strive for creating animals uniform in size with reverse scissors bites.
LU Name several Lhasa Apsos not owned by yourself, that have impresses you over the years as outstanding representatives of the breed. For what particular reasons?
FL Best In Show Ch. Nyima's Once A Nites Enuff impressed us so much that we became involved in the breed!! Snuffy was so elegant in the ring and a gentleman at heart. Ch. San Jo's Hussel Bussel is a beautiful regal animal. It was a pleasure to watch her float gracefully around the ring. A most moving moment was seeing Ch. Kinderland's Tonka, in full coat, in the 1983 Parade of Titleholders. Age has served her well. Seeing these two bitches, it is obvious why they hold a place in the history of the Lhasa Apso.
LU Is there another breeder contemporary with you you who you feel has made worthwhile advancements in his or her breeding program?
FL If by contemporary, you mean someone who has been active in the breed as long as we have this is a difficult question because we're not sure of the length of people's involvement. Relying on photographs and advertising for an opinion cam be misleading, but with risk of offending someone we will answer this. Kay hales, breeding under the Wyndwood prefix, appears to have some exquisite animals, as well as Jolene Cazzola with Jolee Lhasas. Pat Keen and Midge Hylton each have been breeding a number of years, but we are impressed with the dogs they have produced since combining their efforts. Several veteran breeders we admire are Marianne Nixon and Le4slie Ann Engen of San Jo and Barbara Wood of Anbara.
LU Finally, what does the future hold in store for the breed? What do you think the Lhasa Apso will look like in 15 years?
FL The future is as bright as breeders want to make it. Unless current trends change, we feel many Lhasas will be larger because people tent to breed to the top winning dogs and bigger dogs seem to be doing a fair share of the group winning and placing. A dismal thought, but a possibility, is the majority of our breed being crippled with bad stifles and hocks. Breeders must put soundness in the top priority spot it belongs! In fifteen years we hope, with our study and effort in the breed, Fleetfire will consistently produce the animal we described earlier.
Fleetfire Lhasa Apsos
Debby Rothman & Mary Schroeder
8391 London Lane, Conifer, CO 80433
The following ads were included after the article.
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